PetsApp Podcast - Episode 3: A Chat with Hannah Olliff-Lee from Pennard Vets

Thom Jenkins: 0:10 Hello and welcome to episode three of the PetsApp podcast. We are joined today by veterinary nurse extraordinaire Hannah Olliff-Lee. Hannah is nursing team leader at Pennard vets and is passionate about geriatric care, physio therapy and veterinary leadership, welcome Hannah!

Hannah Olliff-Lee: 0:33 Hi Thom, thanks for having me on today.

Thom Jenkins: 0:33 Of course, Hannah, tell me a little bit about your decision to become a vet nurse.

Hannah Olliff-Lee: 0:35 Oh , well actually I never set out to be a vet nurse at all. Erm, I was very very much involved in a equestrian career . and when it came around to going to uni, I got the syllabus through for my equestrian exams and things and I went, Oh , do you know what I think I, I could probably teach this due to my background. I thought okay, so what am I going to do now? So I took a year off a gap year and sort of bummed about, and worked in some pubs and had a great time and er then someone said to me, well, you know, you've got a really big animal background. Why don't you go into veterinary? And I thought, actually, yeah, fine . And that was that!

Thom Jenkins: 1:14 Sounds like a good idea to me.

Hannah Olliff-Lee: 1:16 Yeah, it has , some funny, funny stories along with it. I was studying environmental land based science at school, and one of my teachers came to find me knowing that I had a farming background to come and look at one of the roosters that had been attacked by a Fox.

Thom Jenkins: 1:32 Hopefully that was one of your many success stories as a nurse?

Hannah Olliff-Lee: 1:37 Yeah, no, he, he lived to attack many more students.

Thom Jenkins: 1:43 We had chickens when I was younger and erm we hatched out a couple of the eggs and obviously that has the inevitable consequence of roosters and then it was mine and my brother's job to put them to sort of to bed at night, so they wouldn't wake everyone up super early in the morning. And yeah, I can testify to the fact that they're not the easiest of animals to handle.

Hannah Olliff-Lee: 2:07 No, and they're definitely not my favorite either.

Thom Jenkins: 2:11 If someone's thinking about becoming a veterinary nurse now, right. If someone was coming to you asking for your advice on joining the profession, what would you outline to them as the key challenges and opportunities?

Hannah Olliff-Lee: 2:24 So I think one of certainly one of my biggest challenges in becoming a veterinary nurse was actually finding a training practice because a lot of practices have stopped training students, especially student nurses, just because of the input and the manpower it takes to train somebody and train somebody well, and I think a lot of practices don't feel they've got the resources to do that properly, and for me, I know when I did, when I was looking for a training practice, I sent out 365 letters and I got two replies.

Thom Jenkins: 3:03 My goodness, Wow!

Hannah Olliff-Lee: 3:03 So, you know, in, in that way, that sort of getting your foot in the door and also you have to blow your own trumpet a little bit and say, I would be really good for your practice because you know, I've got this experience and these are the things that I'm interested in and I noticed that you're interested in them too. And I think that would really, you know, we, mutually, we would benefit each other, which I think works really well. Erm and where you can go from vet nursing is such a massive platform. I've always seen it as, it's obviously, it's a perfect profession in its own right, but there are so many ways you can go, you can go into, you know , there's further veterinary qualifications you can do. You can go into owning your own businesses, doing something like hydrotherapy, physiotherapy grooming pet-sitting, a veterinary friend of mine actually has just set up her own boarding business. So she's got eight Wendy houses in her back garden that are all kitted out for your pet and they each have a web camera in that you can tap into while you're on holiday and see what they're up to.

Thom Jenkins: 4:06 Oh, super, great use of technology.

Hannah Olliff-Lee: 4:09 Yes.

Thom Jenkins: 4:09 It's really interesting. We talk about the veterinary passport and it's a similar situation with the veterinary nurse passport that it does prepare you for diversity of, you know , career options and positions. And as I mentioned, I think right in the introduction you have an interest in veterinary leadership. What does that mean to you? What does leadership mean to you?

Hannah Olliff-Lee: 4:31 I absolutely love veterinary leadership because I feel it's , it's something in veterinary actually at the minute that doesn't get discussed a lot and a lot of people find themselves in leadership positions or in management positions just because they've been in the job the longest, not because they actually want to manage people because it's not about your clinical expertise, It's about the people you're looking after and how well you can solve their problems and how well you can manage them and get the best out of them, and I think as a profession, we are working more and more, and it's getting a bit of speed now, on preparing people for managing each other and dealing with those personal issues that come up.

Thom Jenkins: 5:15 it so important, isn't it , it creates the whole part of the experience of being a member of a veterinary team depends on the culture of that team and , and the behavioral norms of that team and leadership I guess, is partly setting those behavioral norms informing that culture.

Hannah Olliff-Lee: 5:31 Yeah exactly, and for me, I am a big advocate of , not necessarily lead from the front, but lead by example. So I would never ask someone to do something, I wouldn't be prepared to do myself , and I think your team knowing that creates the expectation, they're like, Oh, well you would do it, but you're busy, so I'll do it for you. You know, it makes that teamwork piece a lot more key and It's a mixture of being clinical and being there for experience and also dealing with the personal stuff and having time to talk to people and say , you know , how are you getting on and working out what people's strengths are and using that to your advantage. I'm terrible at delegating, and my team know that, which they find quite hilarious because they , I have a book that I walk around with that has a list of jobs and they kind of go through and go, well, I could do that and I could do that because you're not going to get time and I want to talk to you about something else. Erm so you know.

Thom Jenkins: 6:29 You've delegated the delegation,

Hannah Olliff-Lee: 6:30 Exactly.

Thom Jenkins: 6:30 so actually you're a delegation master!

Hannah Olliff-Lee: 6:34 Maybe, maybe, or they've , they've just picked up on my weakness and turned it into their strength .

Thom Jenkins: 6:41 That's brilliant. And where else have you seen this sort of leadership displayed? Have you had any mentors or role models either personally or you've seen it sort of from afar?

Hannah Olliff-Lee: 6:51 So I've been really, really lucky and actually Pennards in particular are amazing. They do so much leadership training with their management team , and that allows us to develop mechanisms, and we've also erm personality typed all our staff, which means I know how people like to be spoken to how they like to receive messages, what skills they are better at personality wise , which has been brilliant. And almost being a veterinary person and sucking in all that information. Cause we love information and papers and things like that. Um, I can go right so I've got this person and I know that they're really good at creative things, so I'll send them off to do that. And this person's really good at step by step things so they can write the protocols, and I know that they'll like that in a message and exactly what I want. And this person wants to be spoken to face to face and I can get a bit more out of them that way. So it's just, just been fantastic. Um, and another person, I really like you might have heard of her is , um , Katie Ford,

Thom Jenkins: 7:52 Yeah, i have heard of Katie.

Hannah Olliff-Lee: 7:56 Yeah, so Katie is erm a superstar at beating imposter syndrome, which we all feel , um, at some point , um , and she's very motivational, she's got a very sensible way of talking and um, I've done a lot of , um, personal development stuff with her. And so, when I have days where I go, Oh, I just can't do it, she's like absolute rubbish H annah. You've got all these qualifications, you've got this far, you know exactly what you're doing. Tell the voice inside to be quiet and crack on

Thom Jenkins: 8:27 Exactly that, exactly that. If it's been done, then it's doable, right.

Hannah Olliff-Lee: 8:32 Exactly. So, you know , she's very much a inspirational person in that way, so you never have to think, Oh could I do it. She's like, if you think you think you can do it and you want it to happen, you can make it happen.

Thom Jenkins: 8:49 Yeah. She's, she's created a great platform with a really positive message. So definitely agree with you there. Talking of leadership at Pennard Vets, Pennard Vets were the first group to launch PetsApp and this was well before the nightmare backdrop of the pandemic descended. What was your experience of PetsApp under normal circumstances?

Hannah Olliff-Lee: 9:10 Now I absolutely love PetsApp and I have to confess, I was actually quite skeptical to start off with because it was a very new thing in veterinary. Um but actually

Thom Jenkins: 9:20 Fair.

Hannah Olliff-Lee: 9:20 it has been, it's completely, the future basically, is how I see it now. Um, and also having something where I don't have to directly give someone an instant answer is wonderful. And we picked it up really really quickly. We have actually got now about 6,000 clients on there.

Thom Jenkins: 9:41 Wow.

Hannah Olliff-Lee: 9:41 Um , so it has been massively picked up by our clients, it's been massively picked up by our staff. Um, and I think one of the biggest benefits of it, for me is not having to answer instantly so you can go away. I mean, we've all been there. Someone calls in, you're on the phone, and you're like, well, I'm not quite sure, I need to check with someone and I will call you back. In that time, three other clients come in, you might forget, it rolls on a bit, you didn't get to ask the person, where as actually, if it's sat there on PetsApp, you can come back to them and you've got a full answer. And I feel like, that's just,

Thom Jenkins: 10:16 Yeah, can definitely relate to that.

Hannah Olliff-Lee: 10:16 Yeah, you are just giving a client a much better answer in one go, instead of coming back and forth. Um , and like I say our nurses love it, our vets love it. It's been embraced by our reception team because it's made food and , um , drug orders so much easier. Like we've not had to , um, try and keep a list of people, you can go, right, okay, they're all on PetsApp. I've told them I've dealt with it. I'll get them all priced up and ready, and then they are good to pick up tomorrow. Erm and it's also reducing that time on the phone. So that just helps everyone out.

Thom Jenkins: 10:51 We talk a lot about the tyranny of the telephone and how you've got three rings to answer it and you have to prioritize it because you don't know what the patient might need on the other end. Um, but all too often, it's a non-urgent query and you've just dropped everything to sort of talk to a owner about vaccination prices, which is important, but not urgent. Um, and so the idea is exactly that , that the chats by allowing asynchronous replies and allowing collaboration across the team, it sort of frees the, frees the team up, which takes me on to my next question for you, which is, people in your role, veterinary nurses, are typically, get notoriously busy as are the , you know, the broader veterinay team to be fair. And a big question for me when launching PetsApp was, we've got this great proposition for pet owners around convenience. We've got a great proposition for practice owners and operators around, you know , improve class utilization, lead generation, monetization of a previously unmonetized touch point, the telephone call. Um, but what about the veterinary teams? How do we stop them seeing this as just one more thing? How do we make sure that this is part of the solution to you know, veterinary, professional burnout , um, rather than part of the problem. Have you, have you got any further insights into that?

Hannah Olliff-Lee: 12:10 Yeah, well, I, I've seen our nurses in particular, now I know a lot of people, especially nurses, feel that they're viewed in a assistant role. You know, it's not really known what vet nurses do. It's not really known as a profession by the, by the greater public, what they do. And we've been using PetsApp to update our , um , inpatient clients and you send them photos of, you know, he's eating today and this sort of thing. And it actually gives us a real feeling of appreciation because the client's seen what we do firsthand. So they're coming in and going, you know, thank you so much to an individual person who sat with their dog for three hours to make sure that he ate some chicken today. Um, and it really gives that sort of appreciation back from the client, which I think is really nice for nurses, cause it doesn't often get seen. Um , because we're sort of there in an assisting role, but also we're there doing a lot of things in the background, so to speak.

Thom Jenkins: 13:14 Yeah.

Hannah Olliff-Lee: 13:14 I think that, that on its own is so rewarding and actually, you know , it's so nice as an owner to know that, you know, your kids are in and they're settled and they're not worrying about you. Um, and actually as well for nurses, it means that we've got a bit more conversation with the client. So when we see them for discharge, they're like, Oh, you know, thank you so much for giving him his Teddy bear. I was really grateful and it just makes that interaction so much nicer for us . Um, and I think our vet team especially have enjoyed , um, giving people an update, especially like laughing at night going, just so you know, here's a picture of him in his bed, he's all settled for the night. I'll give you a call in the morning.

Thom Jenkins: 13:54 You're talking about how this increases the sort of job satisfaction for the veterinary nurses, but hearing stories like that , um, provides great job satisfaction to me and the broader PetsApp team. So I really appreciate you sharing that story. And you're definitely right that , um, people calling up for updates on inpatients is a big cause of these games of phone tag that absolutely no one loves in a veterinary clinic.

Hannah Olliff-Lee: 14:22 Yeah, exactly. And the thing is as well, we've used PetsApp to go, okay, I do want to call you about some results. What time works best for you? So that between the two of you, you can arrange a time that's mutually beneficial. Instead of like you say, I've tried to call her, I left a message. She called back, I missed her. You know , it just, you are then trying to catch each other for hours. Whereas at least if you can go, I'm going to call you between three and half , three. I'll speak to you then, is that good for you? And they go , yeah, perfect. Then it's all set up.

Thom Jenkins: 14:53 I hear you're studying for a diploma in physiotherapy, as if you weren't busy enough, what opportunities are there to combine virtual care as part of a physiotherapy care plan ?

Hannah Olliff-Lee: 15:04 So I've actually used it quite a lot, especially over everything with COVID. Erm, because obviously we haven't been able to have patients coming into the practice regularly for their physio treatments . So we've got a lot of creaky old Labradors who were feeling even more creaky. And , um , it's been really good because people can send me a video of how their pet's moving or what a particular problem is and talk about treatments that they've had before, and what I can do is send a picture of me with my own dog, for example, going then, right, these are the stretches I want you to do. This is something else I want you to do. You can do demonstration of like heat therapy. You can do demonstration of massage. I actually at one stage have a prerecorded video of how to massage your pet at home, that I would send out to people just to try and get them to keep their creaky, creaky babies going a little bit longer and to help them through, through COVID until we could see them properly. Um, I just think it's got such scope. I mean, we've done PetsApp checks, we've done , um , like say some of the physio consults we've been able to , um , look at wounds and ears and things like that, you know, book and assess how urgently they need to come in. Um , so you're almost triaging everything before it walked through the door, which is amazing.

Thom Jenkins: 16:25 Yeah. I mean, that's, that's super interesting in that our pet owner surveys suggest that most of the time, when, when pet owners are reaching out, asking questions digitally, they actually want you to help them prioritize. How much of an issue is this? Do I need to drop everything and come in now? Or can it wait until a more convenient time? Like that's a , they don't necessarily need you to cure the animal remotely. And there's a big part of this where we've got to set expectations appropriately. And this is to augment the existing efforts rather than replace our existing efforts. But owners owners don't see it like that. Owners don't see this as , um, you know, I never want to see the vet again. I just want to sit at home and do everything from home, but cases where they might otherwise have just sort of sat and hoped for the best. And then that becomes a sort of escalating issue. It means like you say, that they reach out sooner and they ask you, they put it in, they put it in the hands of the professionals to sort of give them some indication of, you know, do I need to take off work and come in now? Or can I come in this evening or this weekend?

Hannah Olliff-Lee: 17:30 Yeah. And I mean, for example, the number of dogs and cats who have gone out in the garden and, you know, run under a fence and got a scrape or something like that , um , who have come on and gone, Oh, you know, they've got this wound , um, I've noticed it, you know, it's been there a day or two and you know, it's not something that's obviously very, very bad, but it's something that you can talk to the owner and go, well, these are the signs of infection that we're looking for. If any of these come about, then you need to get into us sooner, if not, you can book in, in a few days, you know, and that kind of gives people a bit of a, okay, so I don't need to absolutely panic, but I know that it can be dealt with, and it can be monitored, which makes, you know, just calms everybody down a little bit.

Thom Jenkins: 18:15 I agree. I think the biggest competitor to veterinary expertise to veterinary clinics is people silently sitting at home and just hoping for the best. And that's not, that's not in anyone's interest because it means the owners are worrying. You know, they're paying a price because they're worrying about, you know, what, what could the outcome be? The pet is maybe not getting the treatment that they need. And us as veterinary teams, aren't getting the patient advocacy opportunities, that , that we would want , um , so completely agree with you there, you did mention creaky Labradors. Er, I think I said at the beginning that you're passionate about geriatric care.

Hannah Olliff-Lee: 18:54 Oh yes.

Thom Jenkins: 18:54 Tell us a little bit about how you've used PetsApp to augment your patient advocacy efforts there.

Hannah Olliff-Lee: 18:58 So , um , what I actually ended up doing for quite a while was doing sort of nurse clinics , um, virtually, especially for our arthritic and geriatric patients, because it's amazing how many people , um, you sort of go, Oh, you know, he's been drinking slightly more or he's been going to the loo a little bit more and you sort of go, Oh, well maybe it's just today, or actually, he's been doing it for a few weeks, but because no one's asked the question, it's not necessarily been picked up. So, I love talking to owners about geriatrics. And I think that fits in with my physio really nicely because , um , I like to talk about all the home adaptations and stuff that you can do just to make life a little bit easier. So things like, you know, walking them for 10 minutes, three times a day is much better than walking them for 30 minutes a day. Um , and stuff like that. So I've been using it to , um , discuss all of those things. Like, how are their habits at home? Are they, you know, are they eating well? Are they eating on both sides of their mouth? Are they drinking, going to the bowl more often? Are they stopping going up the stairs, are they hesitating, I mean the amount of matted cats , um , owners that I've spoken to over COVID and I've gone oh, Okay. Have you ever spoken to the vet about arthritis and things like that? Cause it can be a sign that they're not actually very mobile. It can be a sign that their hips are starting to be sore , you know, things like that. So it's actually a gateway to those bigger conversations.

Thom Jenkins: 20:22 Yeah. I, that's, that's super interesting. And this is so new that you might not have seen it yet, but we're launching this new campaigns module on PetsApp where you can actually filter your patient audience by age, which allows you to send targeted push notifications to owners of let's say geriatric patients and proactively start conversations about mobility or water intake, for example, that might trigger new patient advocacy opportunities. And one thing that frustrates me in practice, or when I was working as a vet was you've maybe got 10 or 15 minutes to advocate for everything that patient will need in the coming year, because that might be the one time you see that patient. And under those circumstances, it's no wonder that these sort of compliance gaps open up where the patient doesn't get everything they need because you just don't have the time. And part of how we've designed PetsApp is to give you more opportunities to engage people in these conversations over the course of the year, rather than putting all the pressure on that one, that one consultation that you might get with them.

Hannah Olliff-Lee: 21:30 Yeah. And I mean, I would love to talk to groups, you know, talking to them, especially in age groups because there's very specific puppy things, there's very specific geriatric things that do need to be discussed. And like you say, when it's all crammed into a 15 minute session and especially if, you know, the dog has been vomiting, it needs a vaccine or something else is going on. You're never going to get time to look at that pet holistically and give them the time they need, which is why I , like I say my paw owners have seen me as If they've seen me, I'm like, come back again cause I want to talk to you about t his a nd I 'm w ant to talk to you about that, because there's so many aspects that can just make that dog's life so much or cat or rabbit or anything, their life so much more comfortable that we just don't always get the time to do and sort of s lip under the radar until they're really bad. And I mean, I'm sure it will annoy you as well. Um , the whole thing of, Oh, he's just getting old now. He's just getting old.

Thom Jenkins: 22:30 Yeah.

Hannah Olliff-Lee: 22:30 Well, actually it's a disease process. It's not part of being older. They're more likely to get it because they're older, but it is preventable. Erm, and there are things that we can do to make it more manageable for them long term . Um , so trying to get those discussions in early is so important and anyone who sees me, who's got like a six or a seven year old dog, m like, so, we want to be thinking about their weight, because it will be putting more effort on their joints and things like that. So , um , yeah, I'm, I have to struggle with the , with the consult time I have to say.

Thom Jenkins: 23:05 Yeah, I think it's great what you're doing, where you're talking about, putting it in a more relatable way for pet owners. We can say, you know, X percent of canines and felines or geriatric canines and felines using words like that, suffer from osteoarthritis and it sort of just flies over most people's head . They're like, that sounds like something I should be worried about, but what does it mean in reality? And in reality it means your cats got matted fur, have you noticed your cat's not able to jump up on the counter anymore. You might think that is great because you've been trying to stop them getting up on the counter for years. But actually that could be a sign of arthritis, you know, is, is fluffy not getting up on the couch as often as usual or struggling with stairs. All these sorts of things where we can actually translate the vet speak and the veterinary nurse speak into owner speak and things that they will notice and then latch onto those advocacy opportunities. And that sounds like exactly what you're doing, which is, which is awesome.

Hannah Olliff-Lee: 24:02 Like i say, I absolutely love it. And I try to put it in small, small, short phrase questions, you know, like, Are they going to the bowl more often. Have you noticed they are weeing more often? When they're eating, are they struggling to bend down or are they eating as much as they used to or do they not seem very interested? You know. And it's all these little behaviours that people kind of go, hmmm. And then because you've asked the question they start trying to notice and go actually, yeah i have realized he doesn't want to play as much anymore or he's sleeping a lot more. And actually we find that they come back and because PetsApp is there as an open forum to ask anyone anything, they are coming back with these questions all the time. And it's like, we've had a lot of travel questions recently where we've been allowed to go go a few more places. And it's like, Oh, my dog gets really stressed about travel, you know, what's the best way to do that. So we're then talking through , um , supplements , suitable travel , um , restraints, things like that. So you can have a big, long discussion about it and work out what's best for them.

Thom Jenkins: 25:07 So Hannah, I've been asking you loads of questions. Are there any questions you want to put to me, turn the table, your chance to put me under the spotlight.

Hannah Olliff-Lee: 25:17 So you , you talked about this fantastic idea of funneling more, more people to coming to veterinary expertise , um, which I really liked because obviously there's a certain amount of advice we can give out really easily in our own time in the practice. Um, and do you think that that will reduce the number of , um, how can I put dr . Googling?

Thom Jenkins: 25:40 Yeah, this is interesting. And maybe my view on this is a bit controversial. I see dr . Googling as a super positive sign, right. And it's funny because the veterinary team likes to pretend Google doesn't exist. Like we kind of dislike Google, but as soon as a case comes in that we're not sure about, we find some excuse to run off and Google it, right. So we use it ourselves. It's a super useful tool. Well, at least I did, I used it a lot. And in fact, my Googling abilities is probably the one skill I have in life, you know? Um, so I think we should see that behaviour as an indication that pet owners want to proactively engage in the care of their animals. And so we should see it as a really positive sign. However, we need to do more to engage with those platforms, with those sort of low effort, early stage , um, outreaches by the pet owner to show that they're, sort of, capture them at point of curiosity and that's something that we haven't done very well, I think is we are very good at capturing issues when the pet owner wants something done to , or for their pet, they'll come into the clinic for that. But when it's just a point of curiosity, something they're not sure about, we , we don't do such a good job of capturing that. And then it's a case of they either hope for the best or they scare themselves on , on dr . Google. And I think we do need to provide an alternative there because some of the things that pet owners are curious about are actually critical issues. And some of the things that pet owners come rushing in for, are thinking they're critical issues are actually, you know, just things that they could have, we could have resolved at point of curiosity. So give you, giving an example of each, there was a pet owner that was taking her golden retriever out to the toilet eight to twelve times each day. She was an experienced pet owner. She had two other dogs. This was her newest dog. And she just thought that's normal for her. She thought, well, if that's what my pet needs, that's what I'll do. And it was only by accessing via PetsApp that she learned, actually, if you come into the clinic, there is something we can do about this, which would improve your pet's life and improve your life. You know, give the veterinary team the advocacy opportunity that they need to improve the life that pet. So again, win, win, win., And then the sort of counter example is the pet owner that came rushing in thinking that their cat had cancer. And really, it was just a point of me educating them that yes, male cats have nipples too, you know, and, and they're the sort of differences. If we can capture them, capture pet owners interest earlier in the course at that point of curiosity, I think we'll do a lot of good things. So for , um , for, for pets.

Hannah Olliff-Lee: 28:24 Yeah. And I think, I think you've what you said there as well, which I really liked, and what I've picked up from that is that there's a lot of things that we're going to be able to prevent instead of have to cure , um , which we know works best. So animal welfare wise as well, that's going to be much, much more beneficial, especially when it's like, you know, things like you say, we've discovered that he's not got cancer. He's , it's just his nipples. But actually I realized that your flea treatment is not up to date and things like that. So we can then broaden that spectrum and make sure that we're ticking all the boxes.

Thom Jenkins: 28:59 Exactly that Hannah , and it will be a big part of this is making sure that each issue is addressed via the channel most appropriate to that issue. If an owner notices something like the fact that male cats have nipples and they go through the high effort experience of coming into the vet, it means next time they notice something which could be, actually be, a genuine cause for concern, they're less likely to go through that experience. So if we help pet owners curate that pet care experience and filter them as appropriate to each kind of experience, which could be online, could be offline, could be a mix of online to offline. Um, I think that maximizes customer lifetime value from a business point of view, but also patient advocacy opportunities and outcomes for our patients. And that's the thing that's great about operating in this sector. It's almost trite to say it , but you can do well by doing good. So many of these solutions are just that sort of triple win scenario. Um, and that's something I love about operating in the sector that we are in.

Hannah Olliff-Lee: 30:05 Yeah. Well, and actually I was just thinking, another big factor, now I know as a, as a pet owner, I've got two Jack Russels, who love to when they see another dog, t hey k ickoff, t hey're trying to sort of have a go at each other in the back of the car and y ou're trying to wrangle a lead on each one. Whereas actually, if I can reduce that stress on all of us. So we talk about t he r educed reduction of stress on the client, but also the reduction of stress on the animal of going to the vet as well. If not a hundred percent necessary i s, is really calming. And actually I know some of o ur nurses h ave done some c ontinued desensitisation chats a nd things with clients erm about traveling them in the car and how to get them used to it while they're not coming in, which has been really calming and really beneficial to them as well.

Thom Jenkins: 30:54 I've been so excited to see the work you guys have done there. See , I'm glad you bring it up, that there's this idea that by doing remote consultations, you can practice fear free veterinary care. And I think that's , that's great. That's part of the solution, but what's been really exciting to see, is you guys take it that step further and use the virtual care platform, user digital client communication, to educate clients about how they can make the veterinary visit the physical veterinary visit less stressful for everyone. I think that I think using it as a client education tool is , is fantastic.

Hannah Olliff-Lee: 31:29 Yeah, we love it. We just love it.

Thom Jenkins: 31:33 It sounds like you guys are just doing remarkable things with the platform and I'm so grateful that Pennard vets and the team there, including yourself, Hannah, gave it a go before, you know, pretty much anyone else did. So thank you for that. And thanks for taking the time to come and talk to us today.

Hannah Olliff-Lee: 31:50 You're very, very welcome, and happy to chat anytime. And thank you for making us a fantastic product that we've really enjoyed and made the most of.


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